GRECIA (Bond e Default)

 

  By: antitrader on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 03:58

Allora sei sulla strada della redenzione che pero' sara' aspra e forte. Io PCI (tante volte) poi PDS poi Di Pietro e poi Grillo. Mai ne' i DS e nemmo il PD, il vino annacquato mi fa schifo.

 

  By: bearthatad on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 03:52

Vade retro Satana! I peccati mortali saranno i tuoi. Mi è sempre piaciuto lo spirito di CL anche se non ne ho mai fatto parte. Hai dimenticato Grillo (all'ultimo giro)

 

  By: antitrader on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 03:42

"Mai lo stesso partito due volte se ti puo interessare. " La lega, forza italia, udc, alleanza nazionale assieme ai fratelli d'ITalia, praticamente sempre per il cav nei suoi diversi travestimenti. Trattasi comunque di peccati veniali rispetto a quello mortale di essere addirittura ciellino, di quest'ultimo peccato io mi vergognerei (e non sto scherzando).

 

  By: bearthatad on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 03:33

Te non hai idea di chi ho votato io in questi 20 anni. Mai lo stesso partito due volte se ti puo interessare. L'artefice dell'ingresso dell'Italia, nonché uno dei padri fondatori dell'Euro, già presidente della commissione (c minuscola) all'epoca della normazione del diametro delle fragole, si chiama romano prodi (minuscolo). Il principale servo sciocco dei crucchi è stato lui. Mai votato.

 

  By: antitrader on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 03:06

Bear, ma come? Te hai votato per 20 anni per uno che voleva cambiare la lira a 1500 contro euro invece che a 1900 e adesso ti metti a ragliare sul cambio? Ma va a misurare la pressione va! Ognuno deve fare il suo mestiere!

 

  By: bearthatad on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 02:25

E lo ribadisco. Non solo i tedeschi avrebbero avuto un vantaggio crescente a tenere ancorata nel tempo l'Italia al marco, ma non contenti hanno pure distorto i mercati rivalutando la lira fino a farla entrare a 990 dopo che era scesa ben più in basso. Dirai: ma chi ti dice che siano stati i tedeschi a provocare la rivalutazione la lira? PERCHE', HAI MAI VISTO LA LIRA NELLA SUA STORIA RECENTE RIVALUTARSI DEL 20% VERSO UNA VALUTA FORTE? La pochezza dei nostri ha fatto si che si siano prestati al gioco. Mentre i crucchi avevano architettato tutto, il nostro governo pareva elemosinasse il pass per entrare!

 

  By: gianlini on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 02:06

Hanno voluto loro l'Italia nell'Euro per sbaragliare la concorrenza infernale della nostra manifattura appioppandoci il marco ( --- è proprio vero che una fantasia, a forza di ripeterla, assume le sembianze della verità!

 

  By: lmwillys5S on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 01:25

esatto Bearthatad depressione crucca in arrivo grafico greco ma sovrapponibile a noi che abbiamo un ebetino

 

  By: bearthatad on Lunedì 13 Luglio 2015 01:05

La Grecia è arrivata a sto punto senza una strategia, OK, senza un piano B, con alla guida un giovane rivoluzionario pieno di sogni etc etc. Ma la Germania? Ma raga la storia dirà che al governo a Berlino prima durante e dopo l'era Euro c'erano dei dilettanti allo sbaraglio! Il governo tedesco ha già detto tutto e il contrario di tutto! Hanno voluto loro l'Italia nell'Euro per sbaragliare la concorrenza infernale della nostra manifattura appioppandoci il marco (e questo è stato il colpo da maestro), poi presi dall'entusiasmo hanno imbarcato tutti (evvai, se funziona con l'Italia perché no gli altri), infine presi dal delirio di onnipotenza adesso sono alla fase della purificazione finale. Ma fosse vero. Uscissero domani tutti i pezzenti, voglio proprio vedere la Germania camminare #b#con le sue gambe con il suo marco#/b#! Si troverà sulla sedia a rotelle come il miserabile novello Schwerin von Krosigk che la guida adesso.

 

  By: Tuco on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 22:51

Quel che fa spavento è la totale assenza di preparazione della Grecia. Nessun piano B. Questi son proprio fessi, menomale che c'era qualcuno che diceva che eran fuurbiii, cazzuti, Forti sti greci!

SLAVA UKRAINII !

 

  By: lmwillys5S on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 21:19

non esiste chiedere qualcosa a chi è già alla fame, Varoufakis in questa storia è l'unico normale ... :-) ormai intravedo il marasma ... se si avvera sarò felicissimo fra due mesi il Portogallo, fra 4 la Spagna, fra 6 l'Irlanda ... in tutti questi tre i favoriti sono simil-grillini dalla parte di Tsipras ... :-)

 

  By: hobi50 on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 14:27

Un ottimo articolo di Blanchard dell' IMF sulla Grecia. "All eyes are on Greece, as the parties involved continue to strive for a lasting deal, spurring vigorous debate and some sharp criticisms, including of the IMF. In this context, I thought some reflections on the main critiques could help clarify some key points of contention as well as shine a light on a possible way forward. The main critiques, as I see them, fall under the following four categories: •The 2010 program only served to raise debt and demanded excessive fiscal adjustment. •The financing to Greece was used to repay foreign banks. •Growth-killing structural reforms, together with fiscal austerity, have led to an economic depression. •Creditors have learned nothing and keep repeating the same mistakes. Critique 1: The 2010 program only served to raise debt and demanded excessive fiscal adjustment. •Even before the 2010 program, debt in Greece was 300 billion euros, or 130% of GDP. The deficit was 36 billion euros, or 15½ % of GDP. Debt was increasing at 12% a year, and this was clearly unsustainable. •Had Greece been left on its own, it would have been simply unable to borrow. Given gross financing needs of 20–25 % of GDP, it would have had to cut its budget deficit by that amount. Even if it had fully defaulted on its debt, given a primary deficit of over 10% of GDP, it would have had to cut its budget deficit by 10% of GDP from one day to the next. These would have led to much larger adjustments and a much higher social cost than under the programs, which allowed Greece to take over 5 years to achieve a primary balance. •Even if existing debt had been entirely eliminated, the primary deficit, which was very large at the start of the program, would have had to be reduced. Fiscal austerity was not a choice, but a necessity. There simply wasn’t an alternative to cutting spending and raising taxes. The deficit reduction was large because the initial deficit was large. “Less fiscal austerity,” i.e., slower fiscal adjustment, would have required even more financing cum debt restructuring, and there was a political limit to what official creditors could ask their own citizens to contribute. Critique 2: The financing given to Greece was used to repay foreign banks •Debt restructuring was delayed by two years. There were reasons for it, namely concerns about contagion risk (Lehman was fresh in memory), and the lack of firewalls to deal with contagion. Whether these reasons were good enough can be argued one way or the other. In real time, the risks were perceived to be too high to proceed with restructuring. •Partly as a result of this delay, an important fraction of the funds in the first program were used to pay short term creditors, and to replace private debt by official debt. The bail-out did not however only benefit foreign banks, but also Greek depositors and households, as one-third of the debt was held by Greek banks and other Greek financial institutions. •Moreover, private creditors were not off the hook, and, in 2012, debt was substantially reduced: The 2012 private sector involvement (PSI) operation led to a haircut of more than 50% on about €200 billion of privately held debt, so leading to a decrease in debt of over €100 billion (to be concrete, a reduction of debt of 10,000 euros per Greek citizen). •And the shift from private to official creditors came with much better terms, namely below market rates and long maturities. Look at it this way: Cash interest payments on Greek debt last year amounted to 6 billion euros (3.2% of GDP), compared to 12 billion euros in 2009. Or put yet another way, interest payments by Greece were lower, as a proportion of GDP, than interest payments by Portugal, Ireland, or Italy. Critique 3: Growth-killing structural reforms, together with fiscal austerity, have led to an economic depression •Given the dismal productivity growth record of Greece before the program, a number of structural reforms were seen as necessary, ranging from a reform of the tax administration, to reduced barriers to entry in many professions, to reforms of pensions, to reforms of collective bargaining, to reforms of the judicial system, etc. •Many of these reforms were either not implemented, or not implemented on a sufficient scale. Efforts to improve tax collection and the payment culture failed completely. There was fierce resistance to open closed sectors and professions. Only 5 of 12 planned IMF reviews under the current program were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of the failure to implement reforms. •The decrease in output was indeed much larger than had been forecast. Multipliers were larger than initially assumed. But fiscal consolidation explains only a fraction of the output decline. Output above potential to start, political crises, inconsistent policies, insufficient reforms, Grexit fears, low business confidence, weak banks, all contributed to the outcome. Critique 4: Creditors have learned nothing and keep repeating the same mistakes •The election of a government in 2015 openly opposed to the program further decreased ownership and required revisiting the existing program, both in terms of policies and in terms of financing. •A more limited set of structural reforms, or/and a slower fiscal adjustment implies, arithmetically, larger financing needs, and, by implication, more need for debt relief. To take an extreme case, if the European creditors were willing to simply forget all existing debt and extend further financing, there would be little need for more adjustment. But, clearly, there were and are political limits to what they can ask their own citizens to contribute. •Thus, a realistic solution had to involve some adjustment, some financing, and some debt relief — a balanced approach. The role of the IMF in the negotiations was to ask for specific credible adjustments in policies, and make explicit the financing and debt relief implications. •We believed that a small primary surplus, increasing over time, was absolutely necessary to maintain debt sustainability. Having examined the budget closely, we did not see how this could be achieved without VAT reform to broaden the tax base, and pension reform to put the pension system on a sustainable footing. On these, our views coincided fully with those of our European partners. •Until the referendum and its potential implications for growth, we believed that, under these assumptions about the primary surplus, debt sustainability could be achieved through the rescheduling of existing debt, and long maturities for new debt. This was reflected in the preliminary debt sustainability analysis (DSA) we put out before the referendum. Our assessment was seen as too pessimistic by our European partners to whom we had communicated our views about the need for debt relief long before publishing the debt sustainability analysis. We believe that current developments may well imply the need for even more financing, not least in support of the banks, and for even more debt relief than in our DSA. A Path Forward 1.Given the results of the referendum, and the mandate given to the Greek government, we believe that there may still be room for an agreement. It should be based on a set of policies close to those discussed before the referendum, amended to take into account that the government is now requesting a 3-year program, and a more explicit recognition of the need for more financing and more debt relief. 2.Fundamentally, the Euro area faces a political choice: lower reforms and fiscal targets for Greece means a higher cost for the creditor countries. The role of the Fund in this context is not to recommend a particular decision, but to indicate the tradeoff between less fiscal adjustment and fewer structural reforms on the one hand, and the need for more financing and debt relief on the other. 3.The room for agreement is extremely narrow, and time is of the essence. There should be no doubt that exit from the Euro would be extremely costly for Greece and its creditors. The introduction of a new currency, and of redenomination of contracts, raises extremely complex legal and technical issues, and is likely to be associated with a further large decline in output. It may take a long time for the depreciation of the new currency to lead to a substantial turnaround. In sum, we still believe there is a path forward. The Fund is committed to helping Greece through this period of economic turmoil. Given Greece’s failure to make a repayment due to the IMF on June 30, the Fund would be unable to provide any financing until the arrears are cleared. However, we have offered to provide technical assistance, where requested, and we remain fully engaged." Io penso che la Grecia fosse messa molto male all'inizio della crisi,che godesse di una ricchezza fasulla enorme indotta dall'indebitamento eccessivo già allora impagabile (e poi chi ci crede ad una crescita media del 4% del Pil greco nei 10 anni antecedenti alla crisi ?). Su questo macigno si sono innestati errori da ambo le parti. E si è arrivati a Shauble che ha finalmente detto qualcosa di simile al fatto che il "re è nudo " ed i numeri non sono più gestibili. Hobi

 

  By: lmwillys5S on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 13:00

azz Mazzalai spara su Tsipras 'Uno che fa referendum sperando di perderlo e di fronte a valanga di NO poi accetta condizioni capestro finirà nella pattumiera della storia' io non condivido, a me sembra Tsipras ora abbia voluto solo evidenziare che le 'proposte' troika erano solo una buffonata ... il parlamento finnico ha votato contro qualsiasi possibilità di negoziare non ci sono solo jellati greci che devono pagare fino all'ultimo centesimo https://twitter.com/icebergfinanza/status/620147574901735425

 

  By: Morphy on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 12:43

Anti è probabile che si arrivi a l'unica cosa che ho detto sulla Grecia circa un anno fa. Spingere a tutti i costi ad un'uscita "autonoma" della Grecia e dirigersi verso quello che era il progetto di Europa a geometria variabile. Andiamoci a rileggere le cose vecchie che magari ci ricaviamo idee interessanti: ^aricolo#http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/1994/settembre/08/Kohl_convoglio_piu_lento_non_co_0_9409089197.shtml^

– Ho imparato a non fare lotta con i maiali. Ti sporchi tutto e, soprattutto, ai maiali piace...

 

 

  By: antitrader on Domenica 12 Luglio 2015 02:01

Vero Will, la cacciata di un paese non e' prevista, mentre mi sembra che sia prevista l'uscita volontaria anche se non esistono le procedure. Tuttavia, senza accordo Draghi non puo' aumentare l'ela e la Grecia e' fuori di fatto.